Annie: Welcome back to the BOAS podcast. I'm Annie. And today I'm talking to Giselle Makinde, the founder and CEO of Cream of the crop, a gelato company with a difference. Cream of the Crop uses food that would otherwise have been thrown away to make their delicious ice cream.

Originally from Brazil. Giselle moved her family to Ireland just before the pandemic hit and has since saved 32,000 kg of food from being wasted. In this conversation we talk about her biggest motivations, why we should all be tackling the climate crisis and the challenges of running a sustainable business. Oh, and of course, our favorite ice cream flavors.

So my first thing I would just want to ask really is if you could introduce yourself a bit.

Giselle: Yeah. Ok.So my name is Giselle. I'm a 44 years old woman living in Ireland for the past five years. I'm from Brazil. So I was born and raised in Brazil and decided to move five years ago to change my life.

So I came here with my family, my husband and my son to start over and the company came two years after we moved here.

Annie: Why Ireland?

Giselle: It was a like, it was a random crazy selection. Let's say I literally opened my computer and I opened the map because previously our intention was to go to Canada. Canada refused us our visa. OK, we applied twice and they refused twice. And I was so sure that I need to move to another country to start over. Like I don't want to stay here anymore. I want to move. I want to just to start fresh. 

I was like, ok, Canada don't want me. But ok, I will try any other place that speaks English. And UK, I tried there as well. 18 years ago they refused my entry in UK, I was like, no, UK didn't want me. And so I don't want them anymore. 

I say what other country? And I was like, Ireland this a small, you know, place. I was like, I didn't know anything about Ireland. I didn't know anybody in Ireland and I was like, ok, so I started Googling and I saw there was a shortage of chefs in Ireland. So there was a lot of jobs for chefs and I'm a chef and I was like, ok, I can get a job, my husband can get a job as well. So I think we can live there.

And literally, it was a month before I traveled to Ireland that I made this decision. Second time we had a visa denied by Canada was May 2018. And end of June 2018, I arrived in Ireland.

Annie: So my gosh, I think that is so I think, I mean, brave doesn't seem to be really a good enough word, but it's brave.

Giselle: Crazy!

Annie: Yeah. A bit of both. Yeah, I moved out to Amsterdam to live with my boyfriend in May. I'm from the UK and I thought that was really brave, like 40 minutes on the plane and I'm here coming to live with my boyfriend that I've been with for like four years now. I can fly back home, in like 40 minutes. And I was like this, this is so brave.

Giselle: So it is, it is really the moment that you leave your comfortable zone. You know, your country that you have your family, you have your friends really like any movement that you do. It is brave. You know, even though it's like  40 minutes on the plane or in a train, two hours, three hours on the train. It is brave when you completely change your culture, you go to a new country with new habits, new language. Do you speak Dutch? I know that it's, it's easy to go around Amsterdam when you speak English. But you don't speak the language there. So you are seen as a different person. So I think you, you are brave too.

Annie: I felt, I felt brave but yours is on a whole different scale. It's pretty impressive.

So you mentioned then that you are a chef by trade and I know that your business is all about food and we will come on to talk about that a bit more, but I didn't realize that you have you always been a chef? How did you get into that?

Giselle: Yes. So I'm a chef since I was 20 years old.

My mom was a cook, you know, like when we were talking about 2025 years ago, being a chef was not, you know, the a dream job. So my mom back 25 years ago, it was not nice to say I'm a chef. So she used to refer to herself as a cook. So I grew up with very strong, you know, female character, cooking, cooking for other families.

You know, I remember that she, when she got a freezer, which was I was, you know, a teenager, you know, I was around 10, 11 years old, you know, getting a freezer, full freezer, it was something unique and nobody knew exactly how to freeze food.

So I remember that she set up a, lessons literally in our houses free the people how to freeze food, how to remove the air, how different techniques, how to freeze and super long shelf life. And I was like, that's funny because that's the whole idea of my business which my mom was doing, you know, with, you know, freezing food.

And I, I still have her, her lessons, you know, her recipes and her, you know, everything that she taught everybody, you know, 30 something years ago. And I, I grew up with this, you know, loving food, loving, you know, the art of cooking.

And when I decided to go to college, I was like, wow, what, what I'm gonna do, what I'm gonna do. So I end up doing my bachelors in tourism which has nothing to do with me, but it was, you know, a very random choice.

But then 2-3 years when I was, after I start my, my college degree, there was one university in Brazil, they released the first, you know, chef, you know, degree in a university. Everything became, you know, very posh, let's say.

And I was like, ok, I want to drop what I'm doing because what I really want to pursue it, you know, being a cook, being a chef and my mom will know you just finish your, your first degree and then, then you go to a new adventure.

Annie: That’s a typical mum- Finish your degree!

Giselle: So that's what I did. Unfortunately, when I finished my degree, one week after my mom passed. And that was really, you know, it became, you know, more stronger in me.

And I was like, that's what I need to do.

Annie: How old were you?

Giselle: I was 20 

Annie: So young. 

Giselle: She was, she was 50 years old. Very young. Cancer.

And it really, it, it, it gave me, gave me, of course not at the time it took me a while but it gave me more strength to continue her legacy. Whatever I've learned with her and I was like, ok, so six months after she passed, I got a job in the first restaurant in Sao Paulo and I knew exactly. So that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. I want to cook. I want to be better.

Annie: So let's move on to talk about your business. I know a bit about it. Could you, if someone's never heard of it before, could you summarize what it is that you do?

Giselle: So cream of the crop is a company that collects food that is going to be waste. they are wasted for different reasons most of them, they are overproduced. So it's a surplus. Sometimes it's because of the shape and the ripeness and also the best before. So these are the reasons that food, it's, it's being wasted.

So we collect them. There's nothing wrong with them. We don't care about different shapes We love them all, all the shapes are nice and good and all the ripeness level also nice and good.

You can do different things. So I started collecting food that was doomed to be waste just because of all the reasons that I told you and transformed into something else.

So the first product that I launched almost three years ago, it was ice cream. So ice cream is basically a canvas. I can use any ingredient. So most of the ingredients that I collect are fruits, fruits, vegetables, milk, yogurt, and cream, basically dairy. But I collect so many different things, you know, like you can go for peanuts best before dates. Cocoa powder chocolate, a lot of chocolate, you know, the best before date it's expired.

But you can, you know, for sure that the there's nothing wrong, you still can eat it because best before it is not a food safety date and people don't know that, but the supermarkets are not allowed to sell.So they have to throw away, but they're still viable, still good.

So I use all these perfect ingredients that nothing wrong with them and transform into sweet treats.

Annie Do you not find that sometimes people are a bit like your product is not gonna taste a bit rubbish if they're using food that's past their best before date. Because I think there's a misconception that you open your fridge and if something says, oh, best before today, it's like, oh bin, put it straight in the bin, I can't eat that. Do you come across many people that have those thoughts? Has that been an issue or not?

Giselle: Yes. But I think when I started the business, it, it was important because I started the business during the pandemic. So everybody was kind of at home, you know, not doing much. And then when I launched the business and I start talking and showing because I, I, I'm a very visual person. So rather for me only to talk about the ingredients that I, I collect, I like to show people.

So most often, you know, normally I take pictures and make videos with all the ingredients that I collect because my intention is to show people like there's nothing wrong with this. It looks fine on that. Just look the same kind of banana that you have, you know, in your kitchen that you have in the supermarket shelves and like any other product.

So I tend to. So when people see it and they're like, OK, there's nothing wrong with this.

So I think this what you just mentioned, it kind of, you know, goes away very quickly and people realize and I don't use rubbish to produce like rubbish.

You know, it's completely different. It's, it's normal. It's just because it's, you know, I more often say that our food system is broken, is broken. You know, when you go to the supermarket, you see this perfect green bananas, like I don't want to, who wants to eat green bananas? You know, you go, you can even peel them.

Annie: Yes, exactly.

Giselle: And it's not pleasant to eat. So for me to go to the supermarket, buy bananas and have to leave in my house to ripe. I was like, why don't, can I not get, you know, ripe bananas?

I understand there is the whole logistics behind. So the supermarkets they offer something that is green that this can be ripe in your house and then you control the process. But at the same time, if I want to go to the supermarket today and I want to do a banana bread, I won't be able to find product that is available for me.

Annie: I have had that problem a lot. I made banana bread before making banana bread was cool. And you can't, you have to plan a week in advance when you wanna make your banana bread.

Giselle: Let me give you just one number this week. Ok? Between last or like between two yesterday and the last Thursday. So in a period of one week. We collect 3000 250 kg of banana that were gonna be thrown away.

Annie: where do you collect that from?

Giselle: So, we have a partnership directly with a company called Fifes. It's one of the biggest bananas distributors in the world. So 99% of the bananas that we collect from them. They are perfect. But because of the specs of the supermarket, they already passed the level of ripeness of the supermarket wants. So most of the bananas that we collect there are yellow, they're past the green, you know, shades, they're yellow. So the supermarkets don't want the yellow ones.

Annie: My question was, how easy is it to plan what you can make when you don't know what's going to be wasted.

Giselle: That's the most challenging part of the business. I don't know, I never know. It's a surprise. For example, I collect this happened, you know, the company is gonna be three years in September. I only collect one time watermelons.

This was two years ago. I collect that. I received watermelon, 17 big watermelons this week out of nowhere. Call me. He called me and said I have 17 watermelons, big watermelons that are going to be waste. If you don't collect them, I was like, ok, bring it to me. So he brought me 17 watermelons. So I'm gonna make a sorbet with a watermelon.

Do I know when I'm going to collect watermelon again. No, maybe it's gonna take 2-3 years, maybe never.

So that's the biggest challenge of the, of the business. So we have a set or, you know, a, a plan for this week out of something, you know, you get 17 big watermelons. Stop everything that you're doing. We have to chop this watermelons we have to produce because they're, they were so sweet.

We were making the juice or the juice to make the sorbet. I was drinking the juice to taste it. They were so sweet. I was like, did somebody put sugar in here? No, because they're really, really, really at the point like if you don't use.

Annie: Yeah, literally, literally that peak.

Giselle: So you have to stop everything, just stop, stop what you're doing. Stop everything that we plan clean, chop it and let's produce, you know, watermelon Sorbet.

Annie: See, that would really stress me out. I'm a planner. I like to plan. 

Giselle: me too!

Annie: And I guess have you got your recipe all sorted or are you working out how to make that watermelon sorbet? Like on the spot.

Giselle: Yes I have to make on the spot. So I learn how to make how to design the recipes for any type of ingredient.

Annie: So you're ready for anything.

Giselle: I'm, I'm ready for anything.

Annie: And how big is your team that you work with?

Giselle: 5 people. Three people cooking one selling. And me, I mean, I'm, I'm the sales, I'm the financer and I'm, I'm everybody.

Annie: Do you get to do any cooking anymore? 

Giselle: Rarely.

Annie: And do you miss that?

Giselle: Yes, of course. But, but like every time that I have something different that it's like for the, for example, the watermelons and I was like, oh, the watermelon is gonna be nice with ginger. So we are doing a watermelon, Ginger Sorbet. So I kind of, you know, go in the kitchen like let's mix this, this, this and that. But once the recipe is done and ok, we found, you know, that's the flavor. So then I don't do anything anymore.

Annie: And is that, what made you want to have a food company, the actual creative recipe side or was it wanting to use wasted food or did those both of those things come together?

Giselle: I think in the, in, at the beginning when I had the idea, like to be honest, I never dreamed to have, you know, bigger premises, you know, employees. I never had that dream.

I started doing ice cream in my house. So I had a set up in my house. So I have a spare room, you know, that I live in an apartment and, and in my apartment, I had a very small room that, you know, they put, you put the jackets, you know, the bicycles.

And so I cleaned that room out, put a table, put a small machine, a glass sealer.  was like, OK, I'm gonna make ice cream from here. So that was my goal. It was supposed to be a side project that I was working in a pub. At the time. It was between, you know, lockdowns and I was working in a pub. I was like, this is gonna be a side project. But then when I start, I love to, I love to cook, to cook. I love to play with food. So I was like, OK, I have this ingredient here. So I have that ingredient. So I made crazy flavors of ice cream. I made one Tahini ice cream with banana skin.

Annie: Does that taste nice?

Giselle: Yes, it does.

Annie: See, yeah, my problem is I like chocolate ice cream and it, it, I mean, I love all ice cream. But if I'll have a choice, if I go into an ice cream shop and there's chocolate, I'll just get chocolate every single time.

Do you have a favourite flavour?

Giselle: I was just, we're just talking about this this morning. To be honest, don't tell that to anybody. I'm not a big fan of ice cream. I'm not the type of person that eats in front of TV. Opens up, you know, a tub of ice cream and just eat it. I never, I've never been like this. but I do love, I love bananas. I have to confess and we made a Banoffee pie gelato. Oh, yeah, it is nice.

So it has the taste of the banana with the and chocolate. And I made a pastry and that has a pastry side just to mimic the, the, the the pastry of the pie. So we kind of you have everything together. So it's really, really, really nice.

Annie: It's clear that running a sustainable business comes with its challenges. I asked Giselle, what motivates her to keep going in a society so focused on consumerism and profit. I think I'm, I'm, I'm so focused on my mission and for now it's enough.

But I know for sure that of course, I need to make the business, make money. I need to make money to in the end of the day. You know, I can see, OK, this is going somewhere for now. It's still the pleasure of having this and working with nice people and be able to I rescue so far. 

I think the last numbers that I have is 34 tons of food. So we're talking about 34,000 kg of food. So it still, you know, gives me, you know, the pleasure of going and I won two awards  this year. being reconised and receiving the recognition of people like for all the work that you're doing, I, I think this is still giving me, you know, the push and you know that I need to keep going.

But I know at some point this as any other business, you know, if it's not going to make money in the end of the day, I need to reassess what I'm gonna do or if I can do things differently or what I'm gonna do.

Annie: And what about your son? How old is he?

Giselle: He's 14 now.

Annie: And what does he think of it all?

Giselle: He comes to work with me here. Yes, he was here last weekend and he will, he will be here tomorrow as well because he was like he always said, mom, I'm gonna be the next CEO of Cream of the Crop.

I was like, yeah, yeah, you're gonna be the next CEO but you have to work, you know, from the bottom all the way to the top.

Bananas, peel the bananas first and then you can become CEO and he gives me a lot of ideas. To be honest, mom, you need to promote more. You need to market yourself. He's doing business in school. So he got a lot of ideas from, from business. I don't know what he's talking about.

So it's, I think he has a different mindset from when I was 14 years old. So he's growing up in a different environment. And I remember the other day he came and said, mom, I sold your ice cream to my teacher. I was like, OK, and daddy asked me to, to ask you about my commission.

Like what commission?

Yeah, I want my commission for my sales.

I was like ok, you want your commission. Ok, so you have to learn how to calculate your commission. Ok, I'm gonna give you 5% commission on top of your sales. And it's like how do I calculate that? Go learn, go ask at school.

So he came back and when he realized- I think was she ordered something like 30 euros or 35 something like this. When he calculated it he was like mom, this is not enough.

I was like, ok, so can you imagine if you remove, this is the cost of the product? This is the cost of the pack, the packaging, this is the cost of my employee. So this if I give you a commission of this, this is what I have to run the rest of to pay the rest of the views. I was like, mom, how are you surviving? How are you eating?

Annie: What a good question!

Giselle: I was like, yes, that's a good question.

Annie: I have another question going back to the business side, which something I've been thinking about a lot, especially working for BOAS and thinking about who buys our jeans and why they're buying our jeans?

You know, is it because they want to, is it because they just want vintage jeans? Is it because they want to give their money to a company that donates to charity? Like, what are the reasons behind people buying where they buy? And you might not know the answer to this. Do you think people that buy your products are buying them because they're super tasty because they like ice cream or because they know that you're using food that would otherwise be wasted?

Giselle: it, it's funny you asking me this because I'm in a moment that I'm, you know, changing a lot of things in regarding the way I communicate to, to my customers, for them to understand the difference between me and other companies, you know, all the story behind and then I stumble into market research that showed me completely different that people are still not willing to buy products that are good for the environment.

They are willing to buy products that are tasty, they're delicious and they are going to help improve their health. But, you know, as long as, oh, this is a sustainable product, it comes, you know, very in the bottom of the list that people said to themselves.

And I think the term of the, the sustainability, you know, idea, I feel it's a little bit complicated to overall. So I think people don't understand fully the concept of what has been sustainable, what do we need to change?

So what are the changes that we need to make in our habits and our daily life in order for us to become more sustainable.

I think people feel that it is too complicated. All the words and meanings. They just want something that tastes nice.  And it won't, you know, ruin my healthy and I'm not gonna become, you know, crazy, unhealthy of eating this product.

But as far as I concern, you know, very little people buy my product because of course they like the idea that people that you can count, you know, from 10,000 customers, you count of the palm of your hand, the ones that are buying your product because they are conscious of, of, of what I'm doing. I would say that 80% they don't really care.

Annie: On the one hand, I guess your product must be tasty. So that's good. Yes, if they're still buying it and they don't care.

Giselle: Exactly.

Annie: On the other hand, that's difficult because you're doing it for a completely different reason to why they're buying it.

Giselle: But I think it's, it's something that will change, you know, like in, in, I think, like, in 5, 10 years time this will change because we need to change our habits.

We need to change the way we're doing things because there's no way we can produce much more food that we are already producing to feed everybody by 2050 we have to increase 60 to 70%. Of all the overall food production that's not feasible.

It's not possible. Yeah, we need to, to, to, to change our habits in order for us to use everything that is already there. So, if you're 45% of everything that is produced today and we have to increase 60 to 70% of production to feed everybody by 2050.

So there's a lot of people doing a lot of things. They're really nice. But I think it's still like we are in a very, very, you know, we're touching the surface of the problem and I think people are kind of, you know, you know, the monkeys when you're like, I've been see anything or hear or anything.

But I think the more we talk the better because you have, we will have to change. There's no other way.

Annie: I agree that something has to change fast. And big. But do you think that that change should come from consumers? 

Giselle: No, it will come from governments and then private companies and then the consumer will have to face. I have to change my habits for, for example, let's use the, the bags from supermarkets. You know, it was something that it was a debate for years, like, just don't produce anymore, don't offer it anymore. So people will have to adjust. You know, I'm going to put everything in my arms or whatever fits in my arms or I have to have a bag in my car or in my purse in order for me to have a bag to carry all my, my groceries.

And then this is now normal. It's part of the habits.

But then, yeah, but there is the, the government side that has to say from now on, this is the law. If you, for example, the single use cups for coffee. If you open my purse, I have here in my purse, I can show you it's not something that I'm saying. I have my keep cup, it's in my purse. So this has to be a law that the government said from now on.

If you, as a, as a company, as a coffee shop or whatever, offers a single use cup to your customer, you're gonna pay a fee, you know, for sure that the next day the owner will say no more. Either you come with your keep cup or you use,, glass or whatever to have your coffee. People will change the behavior.

Annie: You know, it's weird, isn't it? Because I remember you got to the tail. How many bags do you need? And like, 06, it was like, 06 (counts out bags). There you go.

And you just filled the bag and you just carry them to the car.

Giselle: Yeah.

Annie: And then all, you're right and then all of a sudden it changed and yeah, I have and I still have times at home where I'm carrying, like, my food is falling out of my arms because I just will not pay for the bag. No way. Well, I don't even know how much it is. 20 P? You're having a laugh.

No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop, I'm gonna drop all my food on the way to the car (rather than pay for a bag) But you're right.

Like smoking inside.  I know this doesn't relate to food waste or, you know, whatever, but smoking inside that was normal.

And now most people my age, I mean, I think anybody younger than me would not would, would think that was just baffling to think about people smoking inside. So, yeah, governments do need to make changes. Do you think that they will?

Giselle: They will, it will take some time but they will. 

I, a few weeks ago, I was one of the companies that signed, food waste, chatter here in Ireland and it was really nice because it was, you know, among ministers and big companies and I know they are doing a very awful job in terms of, of, of wasting food.

But I, it, it was a, commitment that they were doing to in order to reduce food waste by 2030. and in the end of the, the, the event I went to the lady that made a really nice speech about, food waste. And then I told her, I said your speech was really nice. I understood like, completely what you said. But I think I just not the company but I think as long as the government doesn't put a fine or a fee with all the waste that these companies that were here, have to pay it. Nothing will change.

And she was like, you know, I just, I know she was like, I know that you're right. I know that people won't change the behavior unless it costs them money like it happens with us.

So, can you imagine, you know, big Corporates or, you know, from small to big Corporates? it's the same for, you know, plastic in UK, you have the, tax plastic, you know, it's a tax, it's a fee that the companies they pay when they use plastic of their packaging here. There, there's always a, there's also a fee as well, but a very small fee. And I heard from one company, oh, it's just a very small fee. We rather pay the tax than to change the packaging. 

So what the government needs to do to, you know, to increase the fee to, to a point that, oh my God, it's better for me to invest in, in, in a more sustainable packaging, or whatever it works, than to pay the fine.

Annie: Oh, I mean, if the fee isn't deterring people from using plastic, then it's not working, is it?

I'm very, I'm always very reluctant to, and even in my head when I'm thinking about it to put the blame on people or to put the responsibility on people because people have loads to think about. You know, people can't afford to feed their families. People are busy. People are losing their jobs. Life is hard and, you know, to say to someone, oh, well, don't forget your Keep Cup. You know, it's like, ok, but I have other things to think about. Like I have to, I have to do this, this, this and this. I have to work out how I'm gonna feed my kids tonight. So it's a balance.

But on the other hand, I am in my own head like, oh, don't forget you keep Cup. You know, it's annoying.

I read a book, a few weeks ago it's called, ‘But what can I do?’ by Alastair Campbell.

I don't know if you know Campbell, but he worked for, he worked for Tony Blair. He basically was behind Tony Blair’s election campaign in 1997. The reason that labor won such a big majority in the UK and basically a spin doctor.

And he has written a book called, ‘But what can I do?’, for anybody that thinks is like, panicking about the state of politics, I suppose everywhere, but especially in the UK, it's targeted to people in the UK, I think, people that have just feel so desperate, hopeless, you know? What, what, but what can I actually do?

And he has a chapter or a section which is all about the idea that one person can't make a difference and it really resonated with me because what I've just said basically is, oh, we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be making people, you know, take their bags for life to the supermarket. We shouldn't be making people take their keep cups. You know, it's not, it's not small people making a difference. It's big oil companies, it's big corporations. They're the ones that need to change. One person isn't gonna make a difference.

But Alastair Campbell says he, he gets to that point of view and yes, it is big corporations that need to change. But to have the opinion that one person can't make a difference is really dangerous. And he gives the example of Greta Thunberg, you know, look at what a big difference she's made and she's just one girl.

But he goes, he goes further than that. He says we don't even need to be, we, we can't all be Greta. You know, we don't all need to be skiving off school even if, if you choose to, for example, to make a change, like you'll never buy plastic bags again. He says eventually one of your friends will notice one of your friends will look at you carrying all your shopping or with your tote bag bag. Eventually someone will say, oh, you never buy any plastic bags?  And then you explain to them why not. And then they might not buy plastic bags anymore. And it's a ripple effect.

That was his first point. Basically, that one person can make a difference. And his other point, which I think is probably even more important is as soon as you start having the attitude, which is usually my attitude of ‘we shouldn't be blaming people, we should be blaming big businesses’. It's hopeless. That's just really dangerous, basically.

And we need to stay hopeful and, like, keep fighting every single day. You know, even if everyone around you is not doing it, or panicking, it's hopeless.It's just so important that we, every day we just keep holding on, we just keep speaking to people about it. We keep being noisy even though it's exhausting and it's tiring.

I just, I just thought that bit of this book was really interesting because for like two or three years now I've been saying to people who are telling me off having my, like, disposable coffee cup. Well, it's not my fault. It's the big businesses and, yeah, that's right.

Giselle: But you're not doing your part.

Annie: Yeah. So I do believe that, you know, it's small actions.

Giselle: I'm also annoying with the one book that I read, two years ago, called ‘The Power of Habit’

Annie: I haven't read it.

Giselle: Oh, it's really, it, it kind of, when I read the book it makes sense because I think being sustainable it's a part of a, it's a habit and there is in the end of the book, he, he, he actually, he explains how, the process of a habit works.

So what you're saying that, oh my God, I have so much, so many things to do, you know, I have to feed my kids. I have to do this.

I'm not gonna be worried about the keep cup the same way that we don't, we don't get worried in the morning when you get up, you brush your, your hair, you brush your teeth and you get your keys and you dress yourself and go to work.

You do most of those things without even thinking because it became a habit and the brain needs a habit for, you know, save energy and for the things that really matters, you know, small things that you waste your, you know, your, your energy.

And I thought I was like, oh my God, that's so simple. But really, you know, explains a lot of things and I do believe that being sustainable, it's part of the, our habit and, but we haven't understand fully the reward because the, the way a habit works, you have the queue, you have, you know what, what happened in between and in the end, you have the reward.

So I think that we reward is not very, you know, clear to people in terms of when you're more sustainable. The reward is you can save money in the end of the day, but you can also save the planet. I know that it's a big message but that, that is the big reward in the end of the day. And when you're saying, about your family, friends and everybody that sees you changing your habits, it's how you change your social habit.

You know, I think once we change your social habits, it, it is part, you can go to your coffee shop that you normally go and say, can you have, can you keep, keep cups here that I can work on the, you know, swap scheme that I come here every day to drink coffee. You charge me a fee and then I pay and I have one cup cup for the rest of the week.

If I don't have, if I don't want to have a keep cup in my purse, you know, small, you know, changes that can really cause a big effect. You know, just something about, you know, keep cups and everything is just a drop in the ocean. I know that. But I think it's the process that we need to start moving.

Annie: Really good point. It's just difficult, isn't it? It's difficult to start a new habit, you know? Especially with so much else on your mind. But you're right, once they become instinctive, it's easy. Although I still find brushing my hair hard! 

Giselle: going to gym is still not a habit for me!

Annie: It's been so, so nice to talk to you. It really has. I feel enriched from the last hour. Thank you so much just before I go, where can people buy your products? 

Giselle: they can buy online cream of the crop foods .com. We have a shop online. We deliver in the UK and we deliver in Netherlands. I know the cost of delivery. It is, you know, a pain in the arse, let's say. But hopefully, ok, by September October, we are talking with a few people. We are going to start distributing in the UK and then my second market it is Netherlands. So hopefully in the next 12 years, I will be at least in, into other countries beside Ireland. So that's what I'm working for.

Annie: Thank you so much, Giselle for joining me and thank you all for listening. Make sure to check out cream of the crop on Instagram at cream of the crop food and our account @BOAS.Good. So you don't miss our next episode or any of our updates.